indoor track layout ideas???

[Jackie]

Thanks goes out to steve spencer, dallas edwards, justin alvey, jason and ron melton and all others who build our tracks. Davis county had some of the best lines we have ever seen.

I would like to open the discussion about options for turn 1. This flat corner seemed to gobble a lot of the best riders in utah. I would like to hear what you all think could be done considering a couple of factors. 1 a little less dirt is available in south jordan 2 time is always an issue 3 realistic we can not re create hell track from the movie Rad.

My idea to open this up is to narrow turn one by about 6-8 feet as we are all diving inside anyways and take that extra dirt to raise the berm to about 4 feet high so there is something there to hold your speed.

There are not any other tracks we will have to race that require us to have flat corner skills. I think narrowing the corner to give more berm allows faster and more important safer racing.

When I see the best riders in utah washing out consistantly I do not think it as a lack of skill.

What other ideas do you all have????? I am comfortable posting this because me and my boys have and will continue to assist in building the tracks

[billyschuler]

i love that idea jackie, take some dirt from the last stretch too, i mean by then the race is pretty much decided anyway, just end it in a table top and give us more of a first corner.

[slc-danza]

I think taking dirt from any other part of the track to add to the first berm is worth it. Every time I've ever taken the first turn during an indoor race i'm just bracing myself for a washout.

[JAlvey]

We'll definitely avoid installing a Bermuda Turnangle next time. Part of the problem was the dirt, part was that the turn was too abrupt at the beginning, and probably the worst part, is that if you went and looked at it close about 2/3 of the way through there was a 5 foot section on the inside that was actually not just flat, but off-camber. That's also the spot where people would stand up to start to pedal-never a good combo.

Some ideas that were thrown around:
Running the track backwards from usual (Deseret Peak Layout), putting the sweeper in the last turn where people aren't so stacked together and a narrower, banked turn would be ok. That will require a lot of dirt and space for the first turn.

Turning the first turn into a 90 degree berm, into a short 30ft straight, then a second 90 degree berm into the second straight same as usual. This would certainly open up a lot of lines.

Keep the same layout, but make the turn a bit more narrow and bank it a lot more. Moving the last jump on straight 1 back about 4 feet may help too.

Did people like the "mixed up" third straight, or is a more uniform rhythym prefered? How about the technical first jump?

[bnd]

I think taking dirt from any other part of the track to add to the first berm is worth it. Every time I've ever taken the first turn during an indoor race i'm just bracing myself for a washout.

That would mean there would be more actual pedaling on the track, lol. I personally didn't have a probelm with the first turn but I did see alot of crashes there.

Mike Kelly & myself are not allowed to comment on track builds anymore. Our limit of witch & moan sessions were used up by 05'.

b.

[ogr13]

I almost surrvived both weekends without getting bit by turn 1...
The rest of the track was fantastic!! It was designed, and built, to challenge everybody without be too tough on the younger racers. I am open to trying a different layout every weekend, why keep it the same?
If time constraints do not allow a different build every week, maybe we could try a different turn 1 layout each build.
Do we really need to build the monster "pro-section" every week? Could we use that dirt to do something with turn 1?
Only a handfull of riders can attempt the big jump but all of the riders would benefit from an improved turn 1.
I wish that I could be more involved with the build but my schedule only allows me to help with Sunday de-construction.
Thanks to all who helped build, maintain and monitor the track! It was a great 2 weekends of racing, even if it ended with a crash!

[LocoTone]

Look Ma! No sweeper!

Just a thought.......

[JAlvey]

Look Ma! No sweeper!

That would be pretty cool/ different if there was enough dirt, but with 5 berms, it would also be "look ma no jumps or start hill"

[LocoTone]

we could go back to wooden jumps, old school style.....or definately not!

[b2]

I really liked the more technical-ness of the track in Farmington. I was lucky to not have been gobbled up by turn one but definitely had to let off the gas (like so many of us did) for it or worked a different angle on it. However, I'm open to all ideas presented except for the wooden jumps... unless there's a giant cereal bowl to jump out of.

Rock Springs uses those Jersey barriers for their turns due to lack of dirt... is there anything of that nature that could be implemented to allow for more dirt for turn 1?

I've also not been able to help build and I feel guilty for it. I try to help with the tear-down each time to partly make up for it so I, too, have to express my thanks to Steve, Dallas, Justin, Jason (super thumb), Ron and all of the rest of the amazing help my kids and I are able to take advantage of. THANK YOU!

[sspencer]

Hello all,

Thanks again for all of your comments and suggestions. I always welcome them and will do my best to apply them when possible. I have tried my best to answer the questions and the proposed ideas and hope that I am not being a “Negative Nelly” in my responses. I fall back on my experience of building well over a hundred tracks over the years and all of the mistakes and successes incurred. I always try to mindful of all who will gate up on the tracks attempting to make a course that will give them the best experience possible knowing that there will be 4 year old Novices to 60 year old cruisers and everyone in between on the track.

We have a lot of factors and variables involved in our track builds with the three critical ones being time, amount of dirt and experienced help. We get two days to build the Davis County track and only about 8 to 9 hours to build the SLC County track. We are very fortunate to accomplish what we do in such a short amount of time. Due to the constraints it makes it difficult to get creative but we make due and usually get a fun, race-able track together for each weekend.

My request to you, the Utah BMXers, is to find me at the races and approach me with your ideas so we can discuss them and walk the track to better visualize them.

My idea to open this up is to narrow turn one by about 6-8 feet as we are all diving inside anyways and take that extra dirt to raise the berm to about 4 feet high so there is something there to hold your speed.

There are not any other tracks we will have to race that require us to have flat corner skills. I think narrowing the corner to give more berm allows faster and more important safer racing.

When I see the best riders in utah washing out consistantly I do not think it as a lack of skill.

Jackie, we can look into this request. Some things to consider are the placement of the last turn and the jump into turn one which factor in. This can lead to more single file/follow the leader racing

“Fast riders” don’t always equal “skilled riders”. I feel I was hitting the first turn as hot as most of the fast am’s and took advantage of their youth and impatience by swooping them in the turn (chalk one up for wisdom over youth).

Some ideas that were thrown around:
Running the track backwards from usual (Deseret Peak Layout), putting the sweeper in the last turn where people aren't so stacked together and a narrower, banked turn would be ok. That will require a lot of dirt and space for the first turn.

Turning the first turn into a 90 degree berm, into a short 30ft straight, then a second 90 degree berm into the second straight same as usual. This would certainly open up a lot of lines.

Keep the same layout, but make the turn a bit more narrow and bank it a lot more. Moving the last jump on straight 1 back about 4 feet may help too.

A reverse U-in-a-U would be even more dangerous. Think about trying to cram 5 or more riders into the last turn at speed. It could work with more room and dirt.

There is not enough room for the two 90 degree turns. 90 degree turns are not true 90’s as they need to be more elliptical to flow correctly we would need about another 30 to 50 feet of width to make it work properly.

This is the plan we will most likely go with.

Mike Kelly & myself are not allowed to comment on track builds anymore. Our limit of witch & moan sessions were used up by 05'.

That is right Bruce! And don’t you forget that you two are still on probation… hahaha!

If time constraints do not allow a different build every week, maybe we could try a different turn 1 layout each build.
Do we really need to build the monster "pro-section" every week? Could we use that dirt to do something with turn 1?
Only a handfull of riders can attempt the big jump but all of the riders would benefit from an improved turn 1.

Dave, this will be attempted. We don’t have a “specialized” track build crew and time most of the builds. Usually it is just Dallas and Jason then we get a few dads out later that maybe don’t know what to look for which slows the handwork process.

The Pro Section or Dirt Jump hasn’t been as much of a factor in the last year as we only built it twice all last season. I agree with it too as only a handful of riders are able to jump it and the dirt has been used to improve the race track which everyone is there for.

Tony, I think it would be fun to bust out an “old school” style track sometime to give the youngsters a taste of what we experienced growing up… True BMX! The 5 turns would take quite a bit more time and dirt and significantly impact the jump ratio. If we get enough people interested in a retro race and get Ron to buy off on it then it could be a reality. Anyone want to spearhead this effort?

Rock Springs uses those Jersey barriers for their turns due to lack of dirt... is there anything of that nature that could be implemented to allow for more dirt for turn 1?

We tried the jersey barriers back when we first started using the SLC County complex and the time it took to set them up set us way back on the build time the track was never completed for the weekend. They don’t save as much dirt as you might think especially when our turns aren’t all that big.

Please dont take my responses as being harsh or condescending as that is not intended. I honestly always want to build the best track possible but often struggle with many issues to get anything accomplished.

I have talked to several people from around the country who have indoor tracks and they drool over our set ups. They often spend a week or two to get a track built and never get the quality we do in 8 hours. We are lucky to have the crew that we do.

Thanks and see you at the races!
Steve

[gwwaller]

Steve.....THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!!!!!

I've been on regular week to week outdoor tracks that lack the quality of tracks you build for us on a weekly basis during indoor. We are truly spoiled having such awesome tracks and people to take care of it. What you can do in an eight to nine hour time frame is amazing!!!

Thanks again,
Wayne Waller
"G-Dub"

[ogr13]

Steve,
Thanks for taking the time to address each of the major questions. I don't think you came off as negative at all!
Hopefully the questions/comments did not come off as complaints.
Being new to the sport, I do not have the knowledge and experience to completely understand all that goes into track layout. I do have enough common sense, however, to understand that some of the "old school" tracks were downright dangerous and should never be attempted again(just like disco music and Ford Pintos).
I also know that the BMX racers in Utah are very lucky to have all of the knowledgable and experienced vollunteers that spend time ensuring that we have challenging, safe tracks to attempt challenging un-safe manuvers on.
See ya all in a couple of weeks (or at the skatepark working on bike skills)!!

[b2]

Steve,
Thanks for taking the time to address each of the major questions. I don't think you came off as negative at all!
Hopefully the questions/comments did not come off as complaints.
Being new to the sport, I do not have the knowledge and experience to completely understand all that goes into track layout. I do have enough common sense, however, to understand that some of the "old school" tracks were downright dangerous and should never be attempted again(just like disco music and Ford Pintos).
I also know that the BMX racers in Utah are very lucky to have all of the knowledgable and experienced vollunteers that spend time ensuring that we have challenging, safe tracks to attempt challenging un-safe manuvers on.
See ya all in a couple of weeks (or at the skatepark working on bike skills)!!

Very well said, Dave.

Thank you Steve!

[Scott Mckay]

Well I'm glad I didn't start this thread Jackie,

I made sure to tell Steve in person what an awesome track I thought it was when I saw him the first weekend. I loved the technical challenges and that it wasn't exactly like the same old same old.

By the end of the two weekends however I was hearing a lot of sob storys. I think the biggest factor was the dirt looked better then it actually held. Which would make a sweeper that is allready white knuckles real sketchy.The third straight had a ton of casualtys to the little ones that were still learning their skills. But the rhythym sections allways get little ones I suppose. It was cool to see the challenge.

I did hear some talk about a small 90 into the sweeper and the same on the exit (which is probably not possible),and, or maybe a table in the middle of the sweeper to check things up a bit? I think it is cool to see challenging tracks once in awhile like that as well as seeing more intermediate type tracks once in a while to see people go at it a little more fearless. Thats what makes the indoor at South Jordan so fun. You don't know from fri. to Sat. and from week to week what your going to get. Keep up the great work, It's very appreciated.

Thanks again Steve